An interesting take on the numbers
>> Tuesday
At the risk of being blown out of the water, I'm going to make my point quickly and simply. Cubs fans are awaking this morning to Day 1 A.M. (After Maddux). Among some on sports radio, there seems to be a sense of attachment to Greg, and dismay at this trade, but I ask, what did Maddux ever really do for the Cubs? The bulk of his Hall of Fame career came in Atlanta, and anyone who doesn't expect him to wear a Braves cap when he makes it to Cooperstown is kidding themselves.
In 808 innings pitched for the Cubs, Maddux had an ERA of 3.55. Certainly not a bad ERA by any stretch, but consider this.
Just for contrast and argument's sake, Kerry Wood has a career ERA of 3.67 in 1109 innings pitched for the Cubs. Wood's career WHIP is 1.26, while Maddux's was 1.23 in his time with the Cubs.
If there are any better statistics for comparison, let me know. The question I'm posing is this: Is Kerry Wood as good a pitcher as Greg Maddux? The answer: Of course not. Maddux is a certain Hall-of-Famer. Wood has been battered by injuries his entire career. But statistically speaking, one could make the argument that their respective contributions to the Chicago National League Ball Club are not that different.
Posts
6 comments:
Sever - My God. THIS is why Vinnie, Nate and I would rather you left baseball to the professionals (and the arrogant amateur bloggers).
Lest you forget (though I doubt you never knew), Mad-dog won a Cy Young in '92 with the Chubs, in a year where he posted a 166 ERA+ and won 20 games on a team that on won 78 games and finished fourth in the division. Winning a Cy Young award is tough, and doing it on a loser is downright amazing.
Also, Maddux won 19 games and pitched really well (2.95, 128 ERA+) on a division champion. Granted, he got shelled a little in the NLCS, but his contributions are there none the less.
The bottom line is that Maddux is probably one of the best pitchers in Cubs history, aside from maybe Fergie Jenkins or (double maybe) Lee Smith. Also, the same bottom line says that methinks you don't know baseball so much.
I fully expect Vinnie to add to this in a few hours.
You've completely missed the point of the article. I'm fully aware of Maddux's 1989 and 1992 seasons, which can be described as nothing short of remarkable.
However, 1989 and 1992 wasn't the point of my post. On his CAREER WITH THE CUBS, looking at a larger body of work, his numbers are not as impressive. (As is to be expected as few pitchers can keep that rate up for any sustained period of time.)
Was Maddux's best season better than Wood's best season? Of course. No one is denying that. But as far as overall contributions to the Cubs over their respective careers, their numbers do not appear to be all that different.
But since I know so much less about baseball, perhaps you can tell me how drastically different a 1.23 career (with the Cubs) WHIP and a 1.26 career WHIP are; and how that makes Maddux "one of the best pitchers in Cubs history" and makes Kerry Wood seemingly universally regarded as a train wreck.
No one is saying Kerry Wood is a better pitcher than Maddux, or even his equal, but statistically, (and the baseball writers on this blog know more than anyone that baseball is a game of statistics far moreso than any other sport we discuss,) Maddux's numbers with the Cubs are not much better than Wood's numbers with the Cubs.
Well, I don't know that Kerry Wood is necessarily a train wreck. When healthy (ha ha, laugh all you want), Wood is a tremendous pitcher. However, his stubborn allegiance to bad mechanics and a foolishly macho mantra of "power pitching" have had disastrous effects on both his right elbow and what should have been a great career.
Maddux's numbers with the Cubs are admittedly less stellar than those he compiled while dominating through the mid-late 90's with the Braves. But, aside from saying that his numbers with the Cubs are bad (which they're not), his numbers with the Cubs show that he was a good pitcher early in his career with the Cubs and he was a (slightly less) good pitcher with the Cubs later in his career.
This isn't so much an indictment of Maddux as much as it is a testament to the fact that when healthy, Wood is a damn good pitcher. It's just an utter shame that Wood's never been able to have a stretch of healthy seasons to see whether he could string together three years like Maddux's run from '92-'94 when he won three straight Cy Young awards.
Also, I'll admit that calling Maddux one of the best pitchers in Cubs history is a claim that's made with obvious knowledge of his awesomeness with the Braves. Regrettable, yes, but I think that kind of statement is pretty much unavoidable. In my mind, it's not a whole lot different than calling Reggie White one of the best defensive players in Packers history, although a lot of his dominating years came as a member of the Eagles. It kinda goes with the territory when you're making arbitrary "best ever" designations.
And who knows, is it really a stretch to say that Kerry Wood is one of the best pitchers in Cub history? From '98-'03, his ERA+ were well above 120 each year (with the exception of 200) and his WHIP totals were steady in the 1.2-1.25 range (though not great, 1.25 is kind of what you expect from a power pitcher like Wood that gives up a relatively high walk total). Also, during that run, Wood had an excellent strikeout total and maintained a fairly solid K/BB ratio.
Most importantly, though, is the fact that Kerry Wood had three balks in 1998.
God damn it, God DAMN IT! Sever, you know nothing about baseball.
Congratu-fucking-lations, you can look up a few stats and compare them. Anyone, and I mean ANYONE who has actually watched Cubs baseball over the past couple of decades (i.e. our lifetime) understands that what Maddux contributed to the Cubs organization far exceeds what Woods has done.
So just. stop. writing. about. baseball. PERIOD.
1) Maddux was terrible in his rookie year, so that kind of skews things.
2) What's your idea of excellent major league pitching--Bob Gibson 1968 or better? Gavin is right on--Kerry Wood's rookie year was not only the best rookie season since Gooden's, it was dominant by anyone's standards. Yes, his injury problems have been a consistent disappointment, but he has been an excellent pitcher when he's been healthy. You seem obsessed with discounting Wood's career.
3. There is absolutely no question whatsoever that Maddux was one of the top NL pitchers, if not THE top NL pitcher, from '88-'92. His '92 season was absolutely remarkable, and he was just then entering his prime.
Cubs fans remember this, and they also remember how devastating it was to watch his best years that followed with the knowledge that it should have been in a Cub uniform. Unfortunately, management completely let us down because they thought a couple million less for Jose Guzman (Who? Exactly.) was a better investment. But there's no question--Maddux was their best player at the time (even better than Sandberg by then), and to try and minimalize his accomplishments during that first go-around is nuts. There's a reason he got the contract he did in '93.
True, and I like the amount of discussion that this has gotten out of the staff.
My intention was never to prove that Wood was better or Maddux sucked or whatever.
I was pointing out the seemingly apparent contradiction in a portion of Cubdom that is disappointed with the trade of Maddux, yet wants to run Wood out of town on a rail. (I am not in that group as I was pleased with the trade, and want to see Wood utilized differently.)
Vinnie is correct; Maddux's early years, dominant. Wood's early years, when healthy, for the most part, dominant. Both pitchers have fallen off their form since then, but that could be expected. Will Wood be as good a pitcher when he's 40 as Maddux is now? Time will tell, but I personally wouldn't put money on it.
Believe me, I'm not discounting any player's achievements, but I was amazed at the notion that some Cub fans could be sad about the Maddux trade while the "Ditch Wood" drums grew louder because their Cubs numbers were so similar.
Post a Comment